Hub Moderation Discussion.
I've been noticing the beginnings of some tension surrounding moderation flags as of late, so I decided to follow the advice of Argonis and try to make this discussion more open and general by moving it from the comments to the forum.

I do think that the hub needs to have this discussion, at least at some point, and I hope that we can all keep this a civil as possible. Remember, everybody is entitled to their stupid opinions. ;P

I'm going to try and lay out what I have perceived as the core of the problem, it's not going to be perfect, so please bear with me.

1. Images only seem to get taken down after somebody in the community raises a flag. This means that there are a lot of old images that slip under the radar. It also means that for the people that take the time and effort to post on the hub, getting their post flagged can feel like a personal attack. I've felt this myself, and it's only been recently that I've been able to step back and distance myself from that knee-jerk reaction. The hub has already taken an important step in this regard by making flags anonymous.

2.QCC are people too, they are not some evil organization bent on controlling the hub with an iron fist. They have an important job to do: keeping the hub from straying away from its original purpose and/or becoming a dumping ground. But because posts are handled case by case, I think there is a degree of confusion on what exactly their standards are due to the flagging system being an individual's prerogative, as stated above. If nobody flags a post, it might not even garner the attention of the QCC. Things like dulled eyes, symbols-in-eyes, or whitewashed-eyes (man a lot of eye related problems) can be confusing when two posts with the same thing end up getting treated differently.

I know that the hub has guidelines in the rules and policies portion of the website, but I think this discussion needs be had. I hope that this can start a worthwhile discussion on some kind of neutral footing, and I really do hope that this helps. If there is a problem that I didn't mention/wasn't aware of, please add it.
I didn't mean to cause a civil war...

People like Sealguy's art.
I wished to make one particular comment about this for some time now, so thank you for opening this topic.

Whenever you flag an image, you are required to give a reason. If that reason is valid or not is up to be decided by the QCC. However, I think giving a specific reason - even something as basic as "no mc" or "whitewashed eyes" - should be a must. Getting an image flagged with merely "QCC review" as a "reason" just feels wrong to me.
Kachopper9 said:
I didn't mean to cause a civil war...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1fHxPY3TJo
One thing I noticed was definitely the hex maniac thing, which can't exactly be judged on the same lines as normal spiral eye edits, as their eyes are spirals normally. Mind break also seems to have gotten hit a little because mind break isn't mind control, so to speak. I think some of the flags (at least, that I saw) were valid, but that's not up to me to decide.
Hopefully it all gets solved without issue.

Kachopper9 said:
I didn't mean to cause a civil war...
It wasn't really you, if I had a guess, it was a much bigger problem because of the arguments in the comments.
What pissed me off is that there are currently 87 mind break pics, some of them barely show any traces of actual MC. Yet that rule ONLY happens to come in place when I upload a mind break pic, which showed heart eyes and happy trance (which is more than some mind break pics on here have)
Riley said:
What pissed me off is that there are currently 87 mind break pics, some of them barely show any traces of actual MC. Yet that rule ONLY happens to come in place when I upload a mind break pic, which showed heart eyes and happy trance (which is more than some mind break pics on here have)
I saw that pic and I have to agree that mind break in itself may not be mc, but heart eyes should've been enough..
Riley said:
What pissed me off is that there are currently 87 mind break pics, some of them barely show any traces of actual MC. Yet that rule ONLY happens to come in place when I upload a mind break pic, which showed heart eyes and happy trance (which is more than some mind break pics on here have)
If it makes you so mad why don't you message a mod and link those 87 mind break pics so the mods can look into cause odds are they missed them.
Riley said:
What pissed me off is that there are currently 87 mind break pics, some of them barely show any traces of actual MC. Yet that rule ONLY happens to come in place when I upload a mind break pic, which showed heart eyes and happy trance (which is more than some mind break pics on here have)
I think you might be exaggerating a bit with the "Only your mind breaks get flagged", but I agree that pics with just mind break that don't really have a case should be moderated as well.
Argonis said:
If it makes you so mad why don't you message a mod and link those 87 mind break pics so the mods can look into cause odds are they missed them.
Just so that we are all on the same page, could you lay out the QCC team's qualifications regarding mind break?
There is something I do want to say though. There's a whole thing of "Acting out of character".

For instance, I'll use this piece that sealguy did for a request of mine: https://sealguy.tumblr.com/image/167292937569 (It was on /v/, I didn't even mean for it to be from him)

It's out of character, and the originally request I literally mentioned mental changes, but it doesn't really SHOW in the pic, the only indicator is the fact that it's very out of character. Which can be an indicator of MC.

It's sort of a suspension of disbelief kind of thing though.
One person can see it as MC, another might think that's not enough.
However, making the eyes blank or adding a caption or story is enough.

Heck, I'd love to post it here actually, whether it's by adding a caption or something else. (Princessification and MC to act all girly is so cute)
^^^^
This is something that definitely needs to be discussed further.

In a lot of ways, the best MC is the more subtle stuff, and that often doesn't lend itself to easy identification. Think about something like this,

http://hypnohub.net/post/show/5501/brown_hair-capcom-chun-li-corruption-edexigerero-f

Without any context, this doesn't even seem like MC. It only makes sense if you know about the old street fighter anime.
Kachopper9 said:
spoiler
I agree with this too, but sometimes it really is incredibly subjective.
In an example: the Hex Maidiac, one could say that dressing in a maid outfit and cleaning things would be out of character, but who's to say that hex maniacs (or certain ones, maybe) don't like to dress like maids when doing everyday chores?
Grima180 said:
Just so that we are all on the same page, could you lay out the QCC team's qualifications regarding mind break?
Oh jeez being put on the spot
well lets see
the way i see it it all comes down to "does it have hypnosis in it?"
mind break is not mind control/hypnosis

on the hex maniac situation i know someone else brought it up in another post somewhere but the thing here is we have a character who under normal circumstances would be ok on the hub but because her design literally incorporates aspects of what would be ok under that logic every piece of hex maniac on the internet would fit on the hub and that just can't fly so under these cases we have to be more strict.

i hope this helps atleast.
This isn't the most ideal post to bring this up, but I do think that I should be a bit more transparent in regards to my activity here. I ask for users to try and avoid discussing the part I wrote in spoilers, and to keep focusing on the topic at hand amongst one another.

spoiler

Anyway, here's what I can say thus far:

Morgoth said:
spoiler
Sometimes this would be done by mods like myself, in regards to having posts be up for review with the rest of the QCC. Despite no specific reason being given on some of these posts, most of them with "QCC Review" would be discussed more in-depth amongst the QCC in regards as to why it was flagged in the first place. For any uploaders, artists, manippers, etc. asking for the reason why it said "QCC Review," myself or any other mods would explain why.

I do agree that it would be best to clarify why certain posts are flagged as such, but in the case of independent users not being clear, we can't exactly do much there.

Kachopper9 said:
spoiler
It's best to play it safe when characters are depicted as acting "out-of-character" as to have a clear sign of MC present, be it a pendulum, hypnotic/magic/tech accessory, specific eye effects (not just something pasted-over via a manip), etc. This argument has been brought up time and time again, and if it were to be honored, it would allow for WAY TOO MANY POSTS TO BE CONSIDERED AS MC:

Examples of Characters Acting "Out-of-Character"
>Porn parodies of animated kids shows where the characters are all fucking.
>Fan fictions of characters being paired/shipped together, despite having no chemistry or no prior relationship ever established.
>Characters appearing in alternate outfits that don't fit them at all. Beyond the Hex-Maniac in a maid outfit pic, this character would not normally wear this outfit, nor would these characters even be able to swap outfits easily.
>Characters partaking in [insert random non-MC fetish here].
>Alternate realities or reimagining character's backstories, where they may have become a completely different person had the reality/timeline changed.

This down here is one example of depicting Samus as a princess (beyond the Rosalina comic, which is definitely a solid example):
http://hypnohub.net/pool/show/626
While obviously it's more about the several pics of transformation/bimbofication instead of just one pic, the overall idea is made unquestionably apparent.

I would ask the artist if he could help you out with adding a minor detail to make it MC, be it dialogue, eye-effects, glowing accessory, etc. It may seem small and unnecessary, but it does make it work out in the end, and it especially looks better for the original artist to do it than that of a manip.

TalahDarkfang said:
spoiler
Pretty much any fictional character can be speculated to be a certain way or act a certain way by the fanbase if it's never something that's canonically established. As I said above, it's best to have some form of MC present as to properly justify the character's portrayal, and for us to not have to give that "benefit of the doubt" for every post that may not fit...
RedCollarBlackCollar said:
Pretty much any fictional character can be speculated to be a certain way or act a certain way by the fanbase if it's never something that's canonically established. As I said above, it's best to have some form of MC present as to properly justify the character's portrayal, and for us to not have to give that "benefit of the doubt" for every post that may not fit...
Pretty much where I stand, but I failed to express such.
QCC is also actively watching posts, so it's not just reacting to the whims of anonymous reporters. If a flag is truly unwarranted, the image survives.
Yeah, the trick with these things is always where to draw the line. It can be pretty tricky. If it's too strict, the site becomes less fun (regardless of what it's for), but if it's too loose then it spirals out of control. I'd put something more, but I don't have a lot of experience moderating anything else, so I don't have much advice to give to the mods here. Not to mention that in the one thing I do happen to be a mod on, I'm pretty lenient. Anyways, I do hope that this trouble can be remedied soon, though again, this type of thing isn't exactly simple.
I for one don't understand the logic behind mind break not counting as mind control. Frankly I think the current definitions of mind control are far too narrow and arbitrary. As it stands, there are few to no hard rules or even guidelines as to what counts, and since things are being done on a case by case basis with almost no transparency in the decision making process, the community as a whole has no idea what is even acceptable to upload until a flag is raised.

Argonis said:
Oh jeez being put on the spot
well lets see
the way i see it it all comes down to "does it have hypnosis in it?"
mind break is not mind control/hypnosis
I get being put on the spot so this definition is obviously incomplete, but just to demonstrate a point, under this kind of reading:
-Drugs are not mind control. spoiler
-Body Control is not mind control. spoiler
-Voodoo Dolls are not mind control. spoiler
-Brain Injection is not mind control. spoiler
-Possession is not mind control. spoiler
-Transformation is not mind control. spoiler

And for the record, I don't want any of these images deleted. In fact I chose several precisely because I'm reasonably certain the QCC team have seen them and allowed them to stay. I link them not to demonstrate that they don't belong here, but that I believe they (and those like them) do belong. Mind break in particular has a much stronger case for being allowed to stay than some of the other categories I've listed, simply because it demonstrates a tangible change in the subject's thoughts. Any argument against that must then contend with defining mind control as something other than a change in the subject's thoughts. If the issue is people uploading entire doujins at once, the guideline of "upload the relevant pages and link the rest in the source" is a simple fix that several people already adhere to unofficially.

In any case, the current system seems to be fostering far more division on the topic of acceptable content than it's solving, so I would think that more guidelines are needed. On the rules pages, we have this:

Non-Hypno/Mind Control Content
Any images that do not have clear signs of hypnosis or mind control are not permitted. Signs of hypnosis in drawn content may be relevant to the source media or non-canon. For example, the Celine Flower in To Love-Ru is permitted, despite needing knowledge of the source to recognize the mind control aspect.

Drawn or manipped content is also permitted even if the source is not depicting hypnosis or mind control. This includes screencaps of characters with empty eyes that normally do not have empty eyes, or a character swinging an object. These will be addressed on a case-by-case basis to determine if they are permissible.
At present, this is the ONLY information on acceptable content those of the community not on the QCC team have access to. It sorely needs to be updated so that uploaders have a clear idea of why their submissions may have been flagged or deleted on the grounds of "not MC." It might even stop the offending uploads in the first place.

*disclaimer that this is all my opinion and suggestions, not something I'm trying to pass off as fact or what must be done.
Obscenario said:
-Brain Injection is not mind control. spoiler
Ok wow, That's a little... dark.
Also, these images aren't reality.

The definition of what constitutes is Mind Control is flimsy at best. Like someone's mind changing to fit a new form, It's still CHANGING, so there is a realm of MC.

Saying Mind break is more like MC than the others is... odd.
Mind break is change brought out by certain "Conditions", rather than trying to force a change. It's a "Reaction" to certain situations, like giving in to pleasure and craving.

I could go on about there's a also another side of MC, the Phyisical mind, Like the brain, or the conscious or sub-conscious.

I feel like we're going to far in and overthinking this. People just want to enjoy stuff, and there's a community here. I just want to share art that may or may not MC that I think people might enjoy.

At this point I'm wondering if this is a situation where there IS no right answer. That trying to fix it will change nothing or make things worse.
This is not an official response from the moderation team or QCC, but my personal thought is that mind break CAN be mind control, but not every mind break pic should be considered MC, since we'd have to allow every raped silly pic if that were the case.
Obscenario said:
I get being put on the spot so this definition is obviously incomplete, but just to demonstrate a point, under this kind of reading:
-Drugs are not mind control. spoiler
-Body Control is not mind control. spoiler
-Voodoo Dolls are not mind control. spoiler
-Brain Injection is not mind control. spoiler
-Possession is not mind control. spoiler
-Transformation is not mind control. spoiler
At base, imo, mind control is someone manipulating some part of how the mind works, whether changing their personality (making them bimbos, for example) or stealing bodily function away from them (possession). So what I think on those examples is:
Drugs aren't exactly mind control unless they make you do something specific, like a drug that functions like a hypnotic suggestion.
Already covered body control
Voodoo dolls that force them to do something (as opposed to forcing something to happen to them)
Brain injection, if it makes them okay with whatever is going on would definitely be mind control
Possession is covered
Transformation would probably end up giving them a completely different state of mind, which was manipulated to be that way by someone/something.

To reiterate, just my opinion, and we don't really know if the mods see it the same way and we can only speculate.
I suppose my main point of contention here is the lack of guidelines. Without some kind of rules (hard or soft) to follow, the QCC is basically at the whim of the current team's judgement. The team is made up of people, and people have their own opinions. I don't think it's too far to suggest that it seems like what content is acceptable changes based on who is on the team, no? The very fact that this sparks so much argument proves that some people have a looser definition of "mind control" and some people are more strict.

It seems from my perspective that the current QCC team tends towards more strict rulings, while many in the community (and some past QCC members) are more loose, and that's the main source of conflict. This is fundamentally a difference of opinion, and at present the only way to communicate these opinions are in the comments of individual images.

I personally would recommend that we as a community need to answer the question, "What is mind control?"

Mindwipe said:
...we'd have to allow every raped silly pic if that were the case.
Perhaps this is just another difference in definitions, but I legitimately don't see why that would be a problem. Provided there is an actual mental change or "break", I would allow it. Sex with ahegao isn't really enough to establish a change, but going from resistance to begging for master to punish them more? Why ever would a site dedicated to mental changes *not* allow such a thing?
Just giving my two cents here : I think Obscenario has a point. I'm not in charge of the mods, he/she's not in charge of the mods, but I think that there's a clear issue when people try to upload pics to the site that they think would work, and they get taken down. In fact, I believe this is a problem with the hub as a whole, in that there's little indication upon arriving of how things work. I understand that this is, in essence, a booru, but to be frank I've never really thought boorus were particularly useful as far as finding information is concerned.
I'm not sure what I'm suggesting on that end, apart from a full revamp of the site, but there's my opinion on help given to newcomers.

Now, as for the topic at hand, I think at least some of the problem stems from the fact that QCC is done after the pic is posted, rather than before. Understand me : I know that getting every single post through a committee before it was posted would be pretty damn hard, but the way it's being done now, it naturally lends to controversy when several users can already see the posted pics before they're deleted. Another problem is, as several people have already pointed out before, the seemingly varied definition of mind control. Now, I'm all for strict definitions, but the definition actually has to be strict to work, not be on a case-by-case basis. Similarly, I don't think it should be up to individual taste to judge whether an image remains, but according to one definition.

Obscenario posted some excellent examples, and I'll add to that : I remember there was a whole kerfuffle concerning transformation into objects (balloons iirc, I wasn't a big fan of those). It was never really settled whether it was okay to just lose sentience ; the Brain Eater series, although more snuff than MC, is an example of some tropes constantly used on this site that may, under some definitions, be considered mind control ; the "consensual" tag is another example of a gray area here : is it mind control if the subject is actually okay with it ? For me personally, MC always involved bending someone's original will or intention - this is another difference in opinion. If someone gets injected with a drug that kills their brain, and then the injector uses their body as a meatsuit, is it mind control ? That's debatable, at the very least. The same issue came up concerning nightmare fuel : because, by essence, it is so subjective, and in some cases, it flirts with fetish fuel, it tends to cause disagreement as to whether it should be tagged as that or not.

Now, again, I don't really have a good solution. I see a few possibilities, most of them involving either accepting most or all posts, either refusing most or all posts. But I would tend to think that, if people want to post images that they think are MC but that aren't apparent at first sight, then by all means, let them. This is a sufficiently niche site that most images are going to be at least somewhat related to mental change. I personally believe that QCC should be for, well, quality, and not some personal definition of what is or isn't mind control.
I'd like to say something here that may not sit well with people, and will likely be controversial.

This is as much, if not more, the fault of the community than the mods.

The moderators here are not paid (as far as I am aware). The mods here do this job because they want to keep the community from crumbling, and want to keep the site from becoming similar to the Hypnopics Collective which is (mostly) a jumble of poorly-made manips.

The job of moderator gives them many responsibilities, not just managing the QCC. However the QCC does seem to be a pretty big part of that, and therein lies the problem.

How many mods are there? What, 15? Now, how many do you see actively participating with the community? I'd wager 7 are here daily.

That's 7 people to work the QCC. Doing QCC work takes time. And to be completely honest a LOT of the time the QCC seems to get spammed with BS "flags" like when an image has "No hypno" because it lacks a pocket watch in frame but the spiral eyes, KP "Mind control chip", or other MC options are apparently not enough of a giveaway that some form of MC is involved.

Not to mention that some of these may be things the mods don't WANT to look at. (I.E. Items they themselves have blacklisted).

Pair all of this together and it can likely become a bit annoying to deal with. And you know as well as I that when stupid stuff piles on to actual work, and worse, VOLUNTEER work, you tend to start half-assing.

Now, am I accusing mods of shirking responsibilities? No. What I *am* saying is that we, as a community, need to get a better way to deal with this stuff.

Onto other problems. As much as some of you may not want to hear this, it IS up to the mods to determine what is and is not MC content. That's the (unfortunate, for some of you) truth to this. As the "police force" of the site, as well as it's "government" they create and enforce the "law" here.

However I can agree that there does need to be some deliberation among them to actually set these guidelines but again, that's more work for a group of volunteer workers who already have a lot of our BS on their plates.
I see a lot of information here that's... misled? So I'll try to help clarify some things. (Though it's pretty much all in the rules and FAQ.)

Images only seem to get taken down after somebody in the community raises a flag.
Of course ?_?

I mean it seems that way because
a) When a member of the QQC (or anyone else) sees an image that might need to be voted on, they too use this system.

b) If an image is deleted without prior warning, only an extremely small number of people will notice (I mean you don't get notifications for it or anything), and an even smaller number will speak up about it.

This means that there are a lot of old images that slip under the radar.
The QCC was established a while after the site, and they did not retroactively look through thousands of past images when it was set up. What was decided was that users could flag older images and the QCC would then look at them if the issue arises.

there's little indication upon arriving of how things work
Read dem rules and stickies. The site doesn't give you a pop-up of them the moment you enter, but they're not too difficult to find, especially if someone is wanting to contribute and would care enough to raise objections if their contribution is challenged.

How many mods are there? What, 15? Now, how many do you see actively participating with the community? I'd wager 7 are here daily.

That's 7 people to work the QCC.
Naoooo D= There's only 7 mods and 1 'active' admin. Right here. QCC members do NOT have to be mods. I mean in this case they are, and I don't particularly agree with it since the original point of the QCC was that they are regular users with no power (and an admin puts images up to the QCC, with flags being checked by the admin), so I can see how that may be confusing.

----------------------------------------------------------

I'll also be posting this that I stole off the faq as it seems like nobody has seen it or brought it up yet.

Q: Why are images with Empty Eyes/Corruption/Bimbofication/Etc. allowed on this site? Are those really Hypnosis or Mind Control?

A: This is a tough question to answer. Hypnosis in art, 99% of the time, is symbolic. Some of these symbols are obvious, such as a Mind Control Machine/Gadget or a swinging pendulum, but others are more subtle. For example, Empty Eyes are a pop culture symbol for being in a trance, amongst other things such as mental breakdowns (mind break) and blindness.

Whether or not a symbol explicitly means that Hypnosis or Mind Control are involved is irrelevant. The way we decide what is and is not considered H/MC is by considering if a large number of people could see it as H/MC. If the answer is yes, then the image is allowed. That is why symbols such as Empty Eyes, Corruption (physical and mental), and Bimbofication are allowed on this site and are considered to be Mind Control.
IMO: At the end of the day, indications of mind control are all subjective. You can't really have hard guidelines for a subjective thing like this.
About the list of Mods I a one but the list just hasn't been updated yet.

I feel that plenty of people already know that I am one but still feel it's a good reminder.
Cradily said:

Naoooo D= There's only 7 mods and 1 'active' admin. Right here. QCC members do NOT have to be mods. I mean in this case they are, and I don't particularly agree with it since the original point of the QCC was that they are regular users with no power (and an admin puts images up to the QCC, with flags being checked by the admin), so I can see how that may be confusing.
So wait... the QCC is NOT run by mods, but by the community?

If that's the case... what is the point of this post..?
Imasuky said:
About the list of Mods I a one but the list just hasn't been updated yet.

I feel that plenty of people already know that I am one but still feel it's a good reminder.
Oh whoops. Seems like I was the one misled xD
Cradily said:
Oh whoops. Seems like I was the one misled xD
Yeah it's not been updated with RCBC leaving as well.
Mindcollector13 said:
So wait... the QCC is NOT run by mods, but by the community?

If that's the case... what is the point of this post..?
Think of it as a moderation and QCC discussion. It was just brought about by a person/people flagging some posts that others thought didn't need to be and it started arguments in the comments, so here we are.