Hello All,

There has been a subject that's lately become increasingly prominent in my thoughts. I sort of selfishly made this thread so that I could get things out in the open and see what others thought.

Do you think that we might be able to have a mature and informative discussion about religion and other widely held dogmas? I tend see such things as very helpful and reaffirming when done with proper conduct.

I don't mean to rouse anyone else. I'm actually hoping for quite the opposite effect. I don't believe that these discussions should have be seen as solely negative all of the time.

I actually identify as an igtheist/ignostic but I have also begun developing my own personal faith system that may just contain some wildly preposterous beliefs and concepts.

I think that having a discussion about religion is dangerous if not everyone shares the same views. I personally Identify as a Pure Atheist. I do not believe a God exists, and I do not believe that a God ever HAS existed. The main reason is that there are contridictions in many religions. Take for example, the fact that God kills people for not acting properly with their 'Free Will'. Even though God and Free Will cannot exist together. Proof? In the very first story of Adam and Eve.

God Either: Did not know Adam and Eve would betray him (He is not All-Knowing)

Knew, but couldn't do anything to change the set path (Not All-Powerful, No Free Will)

Or Knew, but did nothing to change it, and punished them for what he KNEW would happen if he made them. (He is all knowing and powerful, but is just an asshole and we have no Free-Will as there is a set path)

That's why I have issues with Religion. Contradictions and Blind Faith everywhere. It almost scares me. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate religious people (I'm the ONLY Atheist in my family) but, it just seems so illogical and full of blind devotion that I CAN'T possibly support it.

This thread could be a time bomb...

Well, let me just get this out of the way now and say that I expect everyone to behave themselves in this thread. Don't take things said here too personally, even if they directly contradict your own beliefs in a less than positive way. That is, after all, how opinions and beliefs work.

If people start to get worked up, then this thread's gonna go.
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As for my religious standing, I'm an open-minded atheist. I don't believe in any sort of god, but I'm not against the idea of there being one. I'm of the mind that, while there's no proof toward there being a god, there's also no proof that there isn't one. Given that, there's a possibility that there really is one (or more), but damned if I'm going to go worship one if there's no logical reason to believe one even exists.

In general, I believe that faith can be a good and a bad thing, so I'm in no way against the healthily religious. However, religion as an organization makes me feel uncomfortable. The only reason to found an organized religion is to give that religion purpose beyond faith, and that purpose is far too easily turned to vile acts en masse.

I tend to believe He knows all possible paths and the consequences thereof, but grants His creations the individuality/agency to choose which paths to take throughout. As omnipotent, I feel God should be able to create factors which are random, even to Him.

Ha ha you're joking right?

That's a funny one. Wait you're serious?

The answer is a simple "No."

So put another way, God can surprise even God? Such a god may know of everything but actively chooses not to? Alternatively, would it be like seeing possible paths for others but choosing to limit one's awareness and involvement in their process throughout the paths?

Still, I can imagine a number of better ways for him handle situations like the Garden of Eden. So if he's going to get involved at all (which I feel is the responsible thing to do; after starting so much) he should be a bit more flexible and open to criticism.



To whom might this be directed?

But, if they are random to him, then he is not all-knowing, and therefore, not all powerful. Just like the question: Can God make something he cannot move?

If He CAN, then he has made something he cannot effect, and is therefore not all-powerful.

If he cannot, then he has limits and is not all-powerful.

Sorry. Contradictions just bother me.

Religion is a pretty broad topic. Did you have a starting point in mind?

Actually no, I was hoping that this thread could be a means to explore the subject in all its broadness.

This is basically my viewpoint. The all-powerful aspect is the only thing that's intrinsic and immutable, and everything else would be subject to that fact. He could make something He couldn't lift, but just as easily turn around and decide He could lift it.


Likewise, He could turn around, decide to take that randomness from the individual soul, and *boop* free-will is gone. In which case there'd be only one path and God would be perfectly omniscient once more. But then, I imagine that would defeat the purpose of creating a dynamic universe and seeking companionship in the first place.

And no problem! Thank you for posing the tough questions; they make these sorts of conversations interesting :) .

This is about what I was thinking. If there is indeed a bit of God in everything, and man was created in His image, then perhaps the creation of the human spirit is all about having an "other" with a similar power of agency. Without some measure of willful ambiguity, it'd presumably be as though God was still alone.


I'd say it's a bit like humans wanting to create artificial intelligence. We want some measure of randomness out of it, but at the same time, we also want it to act within certain parameters. Whether or not it poses a threat to us, what may seem perfectly desirable to it could very well end up being illegal, disappointing or frustrating to us, especially if we created it for a purpose. Imagine that, but on a universal scale.

It also brings up the question as to why the great deities keep these evil deities (I.E Satan) Alive, as, if they have limitless power, they could just poof them out of existence.

In my personal views, Religion was a perfectly fine explanation to things when science wasn't as developed as it is today. Much of the world was confusing, and still is, to a degree. However, Religion HAS been shown to hold some pretty negative effects on the world as a whole. (It HAS done good, but, I'll get into that afterword) Let's Skip the Crusades and Executions and the Conquering in the name of god and murders and wars. Modern day, in the name of God, buildings and people are attacked with bombs, children are used as soldiers, people are basically brainwashed into believing if they do what they're told, they'll get a reward when they die and they don't need to fear it anymore. People hate things such as Homosexuality and people with different beliefs because THEY MUST have the right god. And his word is to only love SOME of his creations. (Don't even start the 'Not Real Christians' Thing. I know MANY people who are extremely devoted, but horribly bigoted, I.E. My extended family.) I just doesn't add up. Why, if there are higher powers that promote love and acceptance, is there so much hatred here on earth spouting from the VERY BOOKS those beings 'Wrote'?

But what about the people who are nice and sweet and loving who have religion? Shouldn't that be a sign that religion is true and good? No. Not really, I mean, Santa is never seen by kids. They never actually see him. They believe in him until they discover otherwise because their parents stop drilling it into their heads. But, he still gets children to act with certain rules because they believe that they will get some reward at the end. To me, Religion is just that. Something Children don't understand, but believe, because parents or guardians tell them so and have it drilled into their heads. Difference is, it never stops. So, some people act good at the hopes of getting whatever 'prize' (Usually a rewarding afterlife) that is promised, and they believe this for as long as they live. Religion CAN create good people, but, it can also create very bad people, and in the end, the only reason those people are good is because they desire to get into a happy afterlife when they die. An unfortunate truth to a comforting lie.

Please, do keep in mind that these views are purely my own. I do not hate anyone who believe in a religion, I just dislike religion as a construct and find it illogical and full of blind faith, after all, is there were ANY facts to support the existence of a higher being, we wouldn't Believe, we'd KNOW. But, you are free to have faith in what you wish/have been told. It is not my place to tell you that you can't believe in such things.

That is not a true contradiction, because those scenarios would not exist simultaneously or in the present. In the first scenario, he would cease to be all-powerful once he created something that he had no power over, but at the time the question is posed up until he did make such an object he remains all-powerful.

The second scenario just means that he can't not be all-powerful.

However, if he has the capacity to not be all-powerful, then he can have limits, and is therefore not all-powerful. This brings up another question. Where did these all-powerful beings come from? Why are they creating humans? Amusement? Or because they are all-knowing, did they know that they would eventually make us? If so, then we have no free will as there is a set path even the gods must follow (meaning they are not all-powerful as they cannot change fate). However, in reference to the Christian god, he has already been shown to have limits. It took him six days to create just the earth. (He also rested for a day, insinuating that he was tired, another display of having limits). Rather than just poofing it into existence at his own will. Also in reference to the Christian God: Why does he allow Satan to continue with his corruption? Why not just poof him out of existence? Like I said, these 'Gods' may prove themselves to me, or, I simply won't believe, but, to me they appear as Assholes, Lazy, Evil, and downright Violent.

Oh, and the Bible has been rewritten so many times, with so many additions and subtractions, alterations and rewordings.....It's not a relevant source anymore. The original texts may show us customs or culture, but, there's nothing truthful about them (to my knowledge). They were written by humans. With rules made by humans, to control the population.

I don't think self-imposed limits count as limits in the sense you are using. It's like being strong enough to lift 500 pounds, but also being able to control your strength so as not to break an egg when you take it out of the carton.

The problem with your paradox is that it assumes that such a being not only would limit themselves in such a way, but in fact already has. If an all powerful being were to impose some sort of limitation on themselves, or create something they have no power over, they would indeed stop being all powerful.

That does not mean, however, that they weren't all-powerful prior to that point in time. The existence of a hypothetical situation in which an all-powerful being could relinquish it's own power willingly does not retro-actively cause it to have never been all-powerful in the first place.


As far as biblical rewriting goes, I really don't trust the book all that much because of the extended length of time that it has been in the hands of people who were more than willing to edit the thing for the sake of their own agendas. I do believe in the existence of god, but I don't really trust a book to have been in the hands of humans without some of those humans getting it in their heads that they could benefit from making a few changes here and there.

I figure the safest thing is just not be an asshole to people and try to do good. I figure an all-knowing and merciful god can probably understand and empathize with the situation we are in.

Like I said, I don't hate you being religious. I just hate your god, and bible, and how your church operates. I find them extremely illogical, and, while, yes, I suppose the limitless being could impose limits and therefore become limited, however, he isn't limitless(once again, he needed a day to rest after taking six to make the earth, which, scientifically has proof to show the planet developed over millions of years). I still hate the 'God makes people good' Argument. Plenty of lies make people act good, I.E. Santa Claus. Or the 'If so many people believe, it must be true'. No. At one point, it was the wide-held belief that the earth was flat. That doesn't mean the earth is flat, it clearly isn't. Popular opinion doesn't create reality.

Sorry if you dislike me for this, many religious people do. I just can't stand how silly and illogical it all is. If you replaced God with any other creature, people would think you're crazy.