I think that Japan and America have fundamentally different understandings of gender identity and maybe even transgenders- but what Fic is saying is that the idea that Bridget specifically is trans originated from a very loud group of Americans, and spread outward.
CoolHypno said:
I agree, that implication is rather concerning to me.
Mindwipe said:
I really don't like the direction this thread is headed.
Also, not sure I like the implication that trans people are just an American thing.
I really don't like the direction this thread is headed.
Also, not sure I like the implication that trans people are just an American thing.
I agree, that implication is rather concerning to me.
That whole comment did feel like a bit of a mask off moment. Which is why I inquired who they felt were the 10% of Americans who weren't the best.
Facepalmunited said:
Hmmm, that doesn't really help the ambiguity then... I'm not sure what we can do with this.
Hmmm, that doesn't really help the ambiguity then... I'm not sure what we can do with this.
That's the reason why I said earlier on this thread this arcade mode feels more like a transition point from otokonoko to something, be it trans, non-binary, I dunno.
But something will probably change, otherwise Ishiwatari could just have continued the plot from other past endings, like one where her brother disappears after leaving the village and something happened with their parents (her uncle didn't have time to delve into the details before Bridget runs away).
(www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOCYqcLdVJU)
I find it hard to ignore something is up when all endings in Strive deal with the same questions, albeit in different ways.
Also, I am sorry. But when talking about us, can we switch from "transgenders" to transgender people. Or hell, just trans people? Something about the way you all are saying transgenders just rubs me the wrong way.
Orphaen said:
That whole comment did feel like a bit of a mask off moment. Which is why I inquired who they felt were the 10% of Americans who weren't the best.
That whole comment did feel like a bit of a mask off moment. Which is why I inquired who they felt were the 10% of Americans who weren't the best.
I don't think it's a mask-off moment so much as Fic just being frustrated by how it feels like a really vocal minority are forcing a possible interpretation at the expense of actually taking the time to dig deeper into it.
Fic only started getting more terse and hostile as people kept making digs and being rude.
DarkSentry said:
That's the reason why I said earlier on this thread this arcade mode feels more like a transition point from otokonoko to something, be it trans, non-binary, I dunno.
But something will probably change, otherwise Ishiwatari could just have continued the plot from other past endings, like one where her brother disappears after leaving the village and something happened with their parents (her uncle didn't have time to delve into the details before Bridget runs away).
(www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOCYqcLdVJU)
I find it hard to ignore something is up when all endings in Strive deal with the same questions, albeit in different ways.
Facepalmunited said:
Hmmm, that doesn't really help the ambiguity then... I'm not sure what we can do with this.
Hmmm, that doesn't really help the ambiguity then... I'm not sure what we can do with this.
That's the reason why I said earlier on this thread this arcade mode feels more like a transition point from otokonoko to something, be it trans, non-binary, I dunno.
But something will probably change, otherwise Ishiwatari could just have continued the plot from other past endings, like one where her brother disappears after leaving the village and something happened with their parents (her uncle didn't have time to delve into the details before Bridget runs away).
(www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOCYqcLdVJU)
I find it hard to ignore something is up when all endings in Strive deal with the same questions, albeit in different ways.
Isn't otokonoko in itself kinda nonbinary, or at least GNC? I know it translates literally to "crossdressing boy" but I think we can agree that there's differences of culture that come into play with that subculture.
I think, based on how the arcade mode is structured, this may be a more isolated story meant to give players a pretty structured experience of ramping difficulty, but that's really guesswork because none of us can read Daisuke's mind.
Fic said:
Learn that word recently, did you? You are thoroughly dishonest.
Learn that word recently, did you? You are thoroughly dishonest.
Oh now this is rich coming from you.
Fic said:
Yes. Bridget is listed a boy in the Japanese bio. There isn't any in-universe justification that he is anything but a male.
Yes. Bridget is listed a boy in the Japanese bio. There isn't any in-universe justification that he is anything but a male.
You're using an out of universe justification, not an in universe one. The in universe justification? Her entire story mode.
Fic said:
But he didn't come out as trans, did he? You're making it up. He jokes that he's a girl; (with a male symbol) in the original version. This is pure and utter cultural imperialism.
But he didn't come out as trans, did he? You're making it up. He jokes that he's a girl; (with a male symbol) in the original version. This is pure and utter cultural imperialism.
Yes she did, and again, there was no male symbol.
Fic said:
You already decided your position before any info arrived. And facts to you are like garlic to a vampire.
You already decided your position before any info arrived. And facts to you are like garlic to a vampire.
I'm not the one denying what is in front of me.
Fic said:
Of course not. I've never stoop that low unless someone smugly declared that others were ignorant of decades old canon, while insinuating that they were an authority.
Of course not. I've never stoop that low unless someone smugly declared that others were ignorant of decades old canon, while insinuating that they were an authority.
I am, since I actually, you know, know the lore of this series when you clearly don't.
Fic said:
Correct. No lore has changed; but you're pretending it has.
Correct. No lore has changed; but you're pretending it has.
The fuck you on about? I'm not 'pretending', the old lore still exists. You're the one pretending it has changed.
Fic said:
Really? Then why haven't the Japanese terms changed? Why are Japanese fans appealing to Daisuke to make it known that Bridget is a boy to fight back against western cultural theft?
Really? Then why haven't the Japanese terms changed? Why are Japanese fans appealing to Daisuke to make it known that Bridget is a boy to fight back against western cultural theft?
They could be referring to the past, or more likely, keeping the pronouns the same so when you play the Arcade mode you learn she changes her gender identity. And don't lump all Japanese fans as a hivemind.
Fic said:
Then why is it so important that you turn him into a transgender?
Then why is it so important that you turn him into a transgender?
I dunno, ask Daisuke.
Fic said:
You sound like a twitter bot.
You sound like a twitter bot.
"Muh bot"? Really now?
Fic said:
No, very few cults in history have killed their children. You're making stuff up. They were cultish because they raised their boy as a girl because of their adherence to superstition.
No, very few cults in history have killed their children. You're making stuff up. They were cultish because they raised their boy as a girl because of their adherence to superstition.
Again, this is not how the lore works at all. The only person making stuff up is *you*. The superstition is that twins of the same gender bring bad luck, so the parents have to get rid of the child, either through exile or killing them. Bridget's parents went against the rules to save their child, it is literally the opposite of being cultish.
Fic said:
"They only groomed him for the majority of his childhood! Nothing serious, you transphobe!"
"They only groomed him for the majority of his childhood! Nothing serious, you transphobe!"
You do not know what grooming is, and again, if it *was* grooming, she wouldn't be so adamant about being a man in the XX games.
Fic said:
American claptrap. Or, in my own words, utter bollocks.
American claptrap. Or, in my own words, utter bollocks.
Looks like someone didn't play or even watch Bridget's arcade mode! Not a shock though, considering how much you've gotten wrong about her.
Fic said:
Stop lying.
Funny that the Japanese arcade mode for Bridget is the same as in English.
Stop lying.
I'm not. Unlike you, I actually *did research*. I know, a foreign concept. The only notable change is Goldlewis in English saying 'cowboy' and 'cowgirl' instead of just 'boy' and 'girl'.
Fic said:
Dude, I know you haven't checked, but yeah it is there.
Dude, I know you haven't checked, but yeah it is there.
Did you?
cdn.discordapp.com/attach...2214055092224/unknown.png
Fic said:
I know. Back then, the majority felt confident to push back against the appropriation of a legacy character.
I know. Back then, the majority felt confident to push back against the appropriation of a legacy character.
No one is appropriating anything, do you think Daisuke had no hand in Bridget's portrayal in Strive?
Facepalmunited said:
I hate to distill the stuff you're saying down so much,
I hate to distill the stuff you're saying down so much,
You're not, but sure let's continue.
Facepalmunited said:
...but this feels like the kind of people that will go through 10 pages of google search results just to find an article that supports their position, with how you're ignoring all the stuff we're tabling on the basis that it's misinformation.
...but this feels like the kind of people that will go through 10 pages of google search results just to find an article that supports their position, with how you're ignoring all the stuff we're tabling on the basis that it's misinformation.
I don't need to Google search, I have *the very games themselves* backing me up.
Facepalmunited said:
The only thing Fic shouldn't have shot at you with is the topic of tournaments, but aside from that it seems like you're deflecting and selectively ignoring information that doesn't suit you. I've examined the stuff that the trans position has tabled so far, and I've provided context that indicates it isn't as clear cut as you say, or might even be opposite of that... and you seem to be not listening, and only selectively addressing points you think you can take on.
The only thing Fic shouldn't have shot at you with is the topic of tournaments, but aside from that it seems like you're deflecting and selectively ignoring information that doesn't suit you. I've examined the stuff that the trans position has tabled so far, and I've provided context that indicates it isn't as clear cut as you say, or might even be opposite of that... and you seem to be not listening, and only selectively addressing points you think you can take on.
No, it's pretty fucking clear cut if you played the arcade mode and listened to her Strive theme. You however, have to forcibly twist the information to fit your narrative instead of being able to present it as is.
Facepalmunited said:
-Canon in arcade mode is implicitly kinda shakey, I just figured I'd make that statement explicit, not to mention this only became important after we had people acting as if Bridget's statement in one of multiple endings was an end-all-be-all
-Canon in arcade mode is implicitly kinda shakey, I just figured I'd make that statement explicit, not to mention this only became important after we had people acting as if Bridget's statement in one of multiple endings was an end-all-be-all
All the endings are about her coming out as trans. Only one is super explicit with the "Because... I'm a girl!" quote, but it doesn't take a 2nd grader reading complimenting to realize what's going on in the other endings.
Facepalmunited said:
-I've seen you and others talk about how unimportant Bridget is and how it's just fighting game writing. If that's the case why does it matter so much to you that they be designated as trans?
-I've seen you and others talk about how unimportant Bridget is and how it's just fighting game writing. If that's the case why does it matter so much to you that they be designated as trans?
All I said is that Bridget is unimportant in the greater story of GG. Bridget's story however is important to her as a character. And it can be thrown back to you, if Bridget isn't important, why does it matter if she's trans?
Facepalmunited said:
-Being forced to live as the opposite gender because of a backwards superstition is the fucked up part, and while I don't know if I agree with the descriptor of cult-ish, it doesn't take away from this being really uncomfy rep.
-Being forced to live as the opposite gender because of a backwards superstition is the fucked up part, and while I don't know if I agree with the descriptor of cult-ish, it doesn't take away from this being really uncomfy rep.
But it never affected her gender identity growing up. She was still identifying as a man.
Facepalmunited said:
-Ky talks about being true to himself, not coming out, and if Bridget has been told by everyone close to him that he's supposed to be a girl, but he became a bounty hunter to prove his masculinity, then it could go either way what being true to oneself means in that context.
-Ky talks about being true to himself, not coming out, and if Bridget has been told by everyone close to him that he's supposed to be a girl, but he became a bounty hunter to prove his masculinity, then it could go either way what being true to oneself means in that context.
"So, when you went public about Gears... Was it scary?" This is why I said you don't have media literacy. This is a clear coming out metaphor, and 'being true to yourself' *is* coming out.
Facepalmunited said:
-The Japanese localization of Bridget's bio still uses exclusively male pronouns.
-The Japanese localization of Bridget's bio still uses exclusively male pronouns.
This is the only thing you have, which as explained above, could've been done to make the reveal of her coming out a surprise.
Facepalmunited said:
-The stuff with Samus and Bridget stem from the same thing- Journalists trying to drum up clicks by making a big, out-there statement. The topic of journalists are coming from the wealth of articles that are claiming that Bridget is 100% trans no take-backs, some of them event more than happy to omit the fact that there are multiple endings.
-The stuff with Samus and Bridget stem from the same thing- Journalists trying to drum up clicks by making a big, out-there statement. The topic of journalists are coming from the wealth of articles that are claiming that Bridget is 100% trans no take-backs, some of them event more than happy to omit the fact that there are multiple endings.
It doesn't matter that there are multiple endings when they all lead to the same point: Bridget wants to come out as trans.
Argonis said:
So just so i understand from everything that's been said. Bridget hasn't changed from a boy to a girl but only was raised as a girl cause of some superstition. so if biological bridget is male and the only reason bridget would say that he/she was female is cause bridget is too shy/scared to go against these traditions but is ultimately biologically and mentally male.
why are people saying bridget is trans when bridget has never undergone any sort of TRANSformation from one gender to another.
So just so i understand from everything that's been said. Bridget hasn't changed from a boy to a girl but only was raised as a girl cause of some superstition. so if biological bridget is male and the only reason bridget would say that he/she was female is cause bridget is too shy/scared to go against these traditions but is ultimately biologically and mentally male.
why are people saying bridget is trans when bridget has never undergone any sort of TRANSformation from one gender to another.
You do know trans people don't just shift instantly to the other gender as soon as they figure out that they're trans, right?
Argonis said:
what i mean is as far as i know, Bridget knows that he/she was raised as a girl Bridget knows that he/she is really male. as far as i know Bridget hasn't shown to want to be a girl of her own free will but was raised to be but her parents but ultimately know's that he's a male. infact bridget cause say he identifies as male but has to identify as female cause of the superstition but ultimately knows and wants to be male but depending on what ending again i'm going by from whats been said here if everything here said is true then how is Bridget trans.
what i mean is as far as i know, Bridget knows that he/she was raised as a girl Bridget knows that he/she is really male. as far as i know Bridget hasn't shown to want to be a girl of her own free will but was raised to be but her parents but ultimately know's that he's a male. infact bridget cause say he identifies as male but has to identify as female cause of the superstition but ultimately knows and wants to be male but depending on what ending again i'm going by from whats been said here if everything here said is true then how is Bridget trans.
Here, let me make it easy for you.
>Village has a superstition that twins of the same gender bring bad luck
>Bridget's parents don't want to get rid of their child, so raise her as a girl to protect her.
>As she got older, she wanted to break the superstition so she set her sights to become a bounty hunter.
>This is where the XX games come into play, which she still identifies as a male.
>Eventually, she becomes a famous bounty hunter and is able to bring money back home, which breaks the superstition.
>This however, still doesn't bring her happiness despite proving she was a man.
>Then her Strive story comes into play, with Goldlewis and Ky helping her figure out her feelings about herself, where she realizes she is actually a girl.
Fic said:
I feel you, dude. It's weird American politics at play.
I feel you, dude. It's weird American politics at play.
Daisuke Ishiwatari is a Japanese man in his late 40s. Where are the 'American politics'?
Mindwipe said:
Also, not sure I like the implication that trans people are just an American thing.
Also, not sure I like the implication that trans people are just an American thing.
People really like believing Japan is some apolitical place when no, it's a normal country, just like the West it has its own ups and downs in regards to LGBT people, among other matters.
Polarisbow said:
Words
Words
We're going in circles with half of this and it seems like you're intentionally ignoring/misinterpreting what people mean with the other half.
I'm not patient enough to keep going point by point with you, especially when I'd just be reiterating the same half the time.
Lemme present you with a hypothetical instead. What if Daisuke comes out tomorrow and says Bridget isn't trans?
Before you fire back with the inverse, if the creator says it blatantly, then I'll accept it as word of god.
this is getting really exhausting to reply with the long paragraphs of cuts.
Argonis said:
this is getting really exhausting to reply with the long paragraphs of cuts.
this is getting really exhausting to reply with the long paragraphs of cuts.
My thoughts exactly. It's turning less into a discussion and more into people trying to intellectually shred eachother :(
Facepalmunited said:
We're going in circles with half of this and it seems like you're intentionally ignoring/misinterpreting what people mean with the other half.
I'm not patient enough to keep going point by point with you, especially when I'd just be reiterating the same half the time.
Lemme present you with a hypothetical instead. What if Daisuke comes out tomorrow and says Bridget isn't trans?
Before you fire back with the inverse, if the creator says it blatantly, then I'll accept it as word of god.
We're going in circles with half of this and it seems like you're intentionally ignoring/misinterpreting what people mean with the other half.
I'm not patient enough to keep going point by point with you, especially when I'd just be reiterating the same half the time.
Lemme present you with a hypothetical instead. What if Daisuke comes out tomorrow and says Bridget isn't trans?
Before you fire back with the inverse, if the creator says it blatantly, then I'll accept it as word of god.
I'm not ignoring jackshit. I've replied to every point I can reply to.
"What if he says the opposite huh? What about that?!" Amazing hypothetical, really. Truly thought provoking and made with good faith. But sure, if Daisuke were to say "Bridget isn't trans" straight up, I would take his word but question what the hell was with the heavy handing trans theming.
Polarisbow said:
I'm not ignoring jackshit. I've replied to every point I can reply to.
"What if he says the opposite huh? What about that?!" Amazing hypothetical, really. Truly thought provoking and made with good faith. But sure, if Daisuke were to say "Bridget isn't trans" straight up, I would take his word but question what the hell was with the heavy handing trans theming.
I'm not ignoring jackshit. I've replied to every point I can reply to.
"What if he says the opposite huh? What about that?!" Amazing hypothetical, really. Truly thought provoking and made with good faith. But sure, if Daisuke were to say "Bridget isn't trans" straight up, I would take his word but question what the hell was with the heavy handing trans theming.
The way you've worded your reply tells me more than the answer to my question does. I'm trying very hard to be respectful and you're spitting in my face.
Does this address your points? Not really, but I already tried to do that and you ignored them by claiming they were misinfo.
In the spirit of being productive though, I've been digging around on other websites to see if they're talking about anything new or useful to having us unravel this and found someone who posted a whole lot of stuff on the steam forums. It goes over some old and some new, and also comes with some external links to click on an already external link:
steamcommunity.com/app/13...p=23#c4778901811097041889
I hope maybe we can all give it a read and calm down... Hopefully find a middleground or something.
steamcommunity.com/app/13...p=23#c4778901811097041889
I hope maybe we can all give it a read and calm down... Hopefully find a middleground or something.
Facepalmunited said:
The way you've worded your reply tells me more than the answer to my question does. I'm trying very hard to be respectful and you're spitting in my face.
Does this address your points? Not really, but I already tried to do that and you ignored them by claiming they were misinfo.
The way you've worded your reply tells me more than the answer to my question does. I'm trying very hard to be respectful and you're spitting in my face.
Does this address your points? Not really, but I already tried to do that and you ignored them by claiming they were misinfo.
Because you're incredibly disingenuous. You claim to be 'both sides'-ing in this situation, but you're very clearly in the 'Bridget isn't trans' circle. You're even defending Fic trying to turn this into a "Left VS Right" thing with the whole '10% of Americans' thing. I don't gave a damn on what 'side' you are, I care about the facts from the game itself, which unambiguously lead to Bridget being trans.
Polarisbow said:
Because you're incredibly disingenuous. You claim to be 'both sides'-ing in this situation, but you're very clearly in the 'Bridget isn't trans' circle. You're even defending Fic trying to turn this into a "Left VS Right" thing with the whole '10% of Americans' thing. I don't gave a damn on what 'side' you are, I care about the facts from the game itself, which unambiguously lead to Bridget being trans.
Because you're incredibly disingenuous. You claim to be 'both sides'-ing in this situation, but you're very clearly in the 'Bridget isn't trans' circle. You're even defending Fic trying to turn this into a "Left VS Right" thing with the whole '10% of Americans' thing. I don't gave a damn on what 'side' you are, I care about the facts from the game itself, which unambiguously lead to Bridget being trans.
I believe that my posts speak for themselves and that other users can see that while yes I have a position, I'm trying to consider and address the points others are making.
Polarisbow said:
Because you're incredibly disingenuous. You claim to be 'both sides'-ing in this situation, but you're very clearly in the 'Bridget isn't trans' circle. You're even defending Fic trying to turn this into a "Left VS Right" thing with the whole '10% of Americans' thing. I don't gave a damn on what 'side' you are, I care about the facts from the game itself, which unambiguously lead to Bridget being trans.
Facepalmunited said:
The way you've worded your reply tells me more than the answer to my question does. I'm trying very hard to be respectful and you're spitting in my face.
Does this address your points? Not really, but I already tried to do that and you ignored them by claiming they were misinfo.
The way you've worded your reply tells me more than the answer to my question does. I'm trying very hard to be respectful and you're spitting in my face.
Does this address your points? Not really, but I already tried to do that and you ignored them by claiming they were misinfo.
Because you're incredibly disingenuous. You claim to be 'both sides'-ing in this situation, but you're very clearly in the 'Bridget isn't trans' circle. You're even defending Fic trying to turn this into a "Left VS Right" thing with the whole '10% of Americans' thing. I don't gave a damn on what 'side' you are, I care about the facts from the game itself, which unambiguously lead to Bridget being trans.
everytime you have posted you have had been pretty combative
