Stem_Cell
12/11/13 08:01PM
US army and thought-disruptors; no, not some conspiracy thing
Ok, I just had to post this, even if I don't have much time so I'll be brief, but man, it's just so... scary. And at the same time, i.imgur.com/YUt5IXy.jpg

But in the current context and its possible applications, scary as fuck. DO NOT WANT.

<<mega.co.nz/#!WRsWmBZR!AD_M8QVztyCOQoM8IQq30nYBx75zjYMwkLfgY3ZV5Qs|Toward Narrative Disruptors and Inductors - Mapping the Narrative Comprehension Network and its Persuasive Effects>>

"Narrative" here means thoughts. To control narratives in the brain, to deter these narratives, is mind control. In the hands of something like DARPA, no less.

I'll just quote some parts of it and you can skim the PDF on your own.


For example, if it is the case that activation in one particular neural network enables people to connect personal narratives to master narratives, by disrupting activity in that brain area, we should be able to selectively impair that specific aspect of narrative processing while holding other meaning making processes constant, effectively creating a “narrative disruptor.”
Not only would this be an important finding in the science of neural networks and of narrative persuasion, but would also have considerably practical and strategic importance. Mechanical disruptions of narrative processing may be, ultimately, replicated in through targeted strategic communication campaigns that approximate the narrative disruptions induced via magnetic stimulation.

(If you could not understand that: it means that the process could be replicated by what we would usually called "triggers", in what it refers to as "communication campaigns".)

<<i.imgur.com/BCwagJ1.png|No, seriously, just look at it>>.

This is like the whole mind control plot in Dollhouse. No less. I'm a bit staggered.

What about if you try to oppose the government in the future? Well:


The disruptor application describes a change introduced by a strategic communication effort that will selectively lower the amount of validity, transportation or vertical integration associated with a narrative within a target audience. The practical application here is a case where extremists are influencing members of a community to support or tolerate them [...] For instance, it will be possible to understand how introducing new stories into the narrative system could disrupt its coherence, clouding the analogy between the master narrative and local narrative.
On the whole our research effort promises to provide a scientific basis upon which to craft strategic communication materials in government and military strategic communication, both to enhance desired messages and degrade those of opponents. This is a revolutionary capability for the enterprises of public diplomacy, military information support operations, and public/civil affairs [...]


(emphasis not mine)


Humans are storytelling beings. There is no clearer evidence of this than the struggles of the United States government to convince world populations of its good intentions, and to dissuade key constituencies from the powerful narratives told by violent extremists. In short, it is widely recognized that the U.S. is "losing the battle of the narrative" and thus, consequentially, the "war of ideas". This project responds to Technical Areas 1 and 2, with the aim of revolutionizing the study of the neuropsychology of narrative and its effects on persuasion. It will generate the knowledge to effectively understand, model, and disrupt narratives—systems of stories sharing themes, forms, and archetypes—on a neurological level, and the capability to induce powerful narrative phenomena (such as transportation and narrative validity) with certainty.


The meat of the project is to use Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation to induce or disrupt narratives in the brain (thoughts), mainly to win the "war of ideas", so that people will gladly obey the government.


Our objective is to map the Narrative Comprehension Network (NCN) of the brain, understand its structural alignment with the theoretical concepts above, and explain how its activity relates to persuasive outcomes in attitudes and behaviors. Ultimately, our project offers the capability to induce or disrupt the operation of narratives within the brain, and develops the capability to induce narrative validity, transportation and integration with certainty.


Also, possibly to use this technology to mind-control soldiers. No, I'm not kidding:

www.popsci.com/technology...iers-sharp-smart-and-safe

And it's been a while since they're working and possibly testing drugs to make soldiers into killing puppets for them to give any orders to:

www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/08/uncle-sam-wants/


* Mind control. Largely pharmaceutical, for the moment, and a natural outgrowth of cognitive enhancement approaches and mind-reading insight: If we can alter the brain, why not control it? One potential use involves making soldiers want to fight. Conversely, "How can we disrupt the enemy’s motivation to fight? [...] How can we make people trust us more? What if we could help the brain to remove fear or pain? Is there a way to make the enemy obey our commands?"


I'll just finish this long post with what I think this is: in the possibly not-so-distant future, the American populace might wake up and want their rights back. When that happens, of course the current people in power will not be happy, and will first try to repress the public by several "soft" means, and if they need to use the military to shoot US civilians, well, they need mind control. They need <<youtu.be/J28vaK977RU?t=36s|soldiers ready to shoot unarmed civilians>> (of their own people, in this particular case) in cold blood. And that folks, is where we're possibly headed.

Fasten your seatbelts.
LillyTank
12/11/13 09:20PM
How frighteningly interesting. At the risk of being the odd one out here I'll just say that this is something of an amazing development. I personally don't completely disagree with what the philosophies here but I do understand the severity of the possible intent.

It's my honest opinion that any tool that is used for evil can be used for good. Perhaps if these methods and practices were done by more than one group; I'd say many of them, then it might be a bit less scary to me.

Also, my very first post here. Hello everyone.
greasyi
12/11/13 10:11PM
The whole thing seems very "been there, done that." Governments have been putting money into these sorts of things for at least a century, and they always seem kooky in hindsight (e.g. experiments to try and coax telekinetic/psychic abilities out of soldiers).

Basically the amount something is investigated is (quite rationally) a product of both how likely it is to work and the potential ramifications if it did work; these kinds of things are recognized as being very unlikely to work in a dramatically effective way, but with too much potential to leave to such an assumption. One might think of it as "cover-your-ass research".
Anno1404
12/12/13 12:55AM
On personal purpose...Can I lend one for my girlfriend?^^
I mean...those little kid wars here and there...the earth will be destroyed before those derps could use those technologies :\
Vanndril
12/12/13 10:45AM
Great. I guess I know what revolution I'll have to lead that will end the world as we know it... Fucking government...

On a more serious note, this is scary as shit. Granted, it's always been scary as shit. This idea is not new, but it's always scary to know that, by sheer process of elimination and educated guesswork, the governments of the world are always inching closer to finding a working Mind Control method for formerly unwilling participants.

Here's hoping some conspiracy theories are in fact correct, and that there are some small secretive groups that have already perfected Mind Control and are using it wisely. Because fuck if that's not our only hope if any government ever succeeds in developing something like this.
Stem_Cell
12/12/13 03:51PM
greasyi said:
these kinds of things are recognized as being very unlikely to work in a dramatically effective way, but with too much potential to leave to such an assumption.

I hope they don't figure it out any time soon. Or at all; that is, not in the current circumstances.

Anno1404 said:
On personal purpose...Can I lend one for my girlfriend? ^^

Honestly, if we were already a more civilized world I'd also like this tech to exist, because I'm fairly certain KinkyLoli would "let" me experiment with her. More reasons to want the world to be fixed.

Also, all you've said Vandrill.

Vanndril said:
Here's hoping some conspiracy theories are in fact correct, and that there are some small secretive groups that have already perfected Mind Control and are using it wisely.

Well, maybe we should form one? We have all the motivation we need :P
Vanndril
12/12/13 09:34PM
Stem_Cell said:
Also, all you've said Vandrill.


This is becoming a thing, isn't it... XD

Stem_Cell said:
Honestly, if we were already a more civilized world I'd also like this tech to exist, because I'm fairly certain KinkyLoli would "let" me experiment with her. More reasons to want the world to be fixed.


Agreed, there. Personal uses aside, the potential usage of this in medicine, also, is extremely intriguing.

Stem_Cell said:
Well, maybe we should form one? We have all the motivation we need :P


I'm too busy managing the one I already formed.

Serious reply: If I had the money I needed, I probably would try to beat the governments to Mind Control. :P
LittleToyMaker
12/12/13 09:45PM
The US government (well, and most other governments around the world) are criminals and they'll do absolutely anything to continue being able to oppress and control the people. Absolutely sickening.
Stem_Cell
12/14/13 03:04PM
Vanndril said:
This is becoming a thing, isn't it... XD

Oh shit, I swear I didn't even realise it. I blame mind control.

Vanndril said:
Serious reply: If I had the money I needed, I probably would try to beat the governments to Mind Control. :P

I know right? I would probably only need a few hundered millions... *checks pockets for change* Yep, not there yet... T_T

LittleToyMaker said:
The US government (well, and most other governments around the world) are criminals and they'll do absolutely anything to continue being able to oppress and control the people. Absolutely sickening.

Being aware of and willing to put an end to it is our greatest weapon. More and more people think like we do.

On a more serious note, in all honesty I don't think this sort of technology will be ready any time soon. The brain is too complex to interface with unless you were literally born with a few plugs attached and the neurons grew around them.

The reason for this is that neural networks are pretty much black boxes: even if you could read the weight and bias of all neurons, figuring out what they mean and what to do with them is virtually impossible. But I might be wrong, the only kind of NNs I understand are multilayer perceptrons.

And let's not talk about the practical implications of sticking your head in what would basically work like a microwave oven. I don't think the magnetic beams you can produce are precise enough to not just fry a whole block of neurons.
LillyTank
12/14/13 06:45PM
LittleToyMaker said:
The US government (well, and most other governments around the world) are criminals and they'll do absolutely anything to continue being able to oppress and control the people. Absolutely sickening.


As true as that may be, I honestly believe (with my personal experience IRL) that a lot of the citizens in the US are criminals at heart too. They simply value the "normality" of their lives to much to actually appose a greater authority than themselves. It's like a quote I once read.

"Many people can withstand adversity. If you want to test someone's true character, give them power."

-Can't remember. :P


Stem_Cell said:
The brain is too complex to interface with unless you were literally born with a few plugs attached and the neurons grew around them.

The reason for this is that neural networks are pretty much black boxes: even if you could read the weight and bias of all neurons, figuring out what they mean and what to do with them is virtually impossible. But I might be wrong, the only kind of NNs I understand are multilayer perceptrons.

And let's not talk about the practical implications of sticking your head in what would basically work like a microwave oven. I don't think the magnetic beams you can produce are precise enough to not just fry a whole block of neurons.


Stem_Cell, you're so intelligent it's almost frightening.
Stem_Cell
12/14/13 08:55PM
LillyTank said:
As true as that may be, I honestly believe (with my personal experience IRL) that a lot of the citizens in the US are criminals at heart too. They simply value the "normality" of their lives to much to actually appose a greater authority than themselves.

Of course, but I believe it's also a cultural thing. Our society is almost designed to make the scumbags rise to the top, while good people don't have much of an advantage nor stand out as much.

Also, the definition of our values is screwed up: you can seek revenge and call it justice, you can seek lust and call it love, you can seek greed and call it entrepreneurship, you can seek your dreams and be punished for it.

LillyTank said:
"Many people can withstand adversity. If you want to test someone's true character, give them power."

-Can't remember. :P

I think we should stop running those tests...

LillyTank said:
Stem_Cell, you're so intelligent it's almost frightening.

I'm flattered by the compliment, but I still have a long way to go :P Also, neural networks are incredibly simple once you figure them out.
Ch0wW
12/15/13 05:16PM
For some reasons, that thread deeply reminds me of something related to mind control, but used through brainwaves to citizens, or even the army...

It was a subject of an american show (Conspiracy Theory with Jesse Ventura) ; I thought it could have been interesting to see that (link -> www.youtube.com/watch?v=18PtOXrzDVE ) ; as a side-note, one episode involved hypnosis on someone, can't remember the episode, gotta find it back =P

Nevertheless, as a non-american person, I find it completely scary, and unfair for people's lives.
US government wants to be the most powerful country in the world, and they'll do everything... EVERYTHING to ruin the world aswell, by mind-controlling, corruption, and so on, and THAT'S what's most disturbing... At least for me.

But what can you expect when it's ruled by complete totalitarism incompetents?
Stem_Cell
12/15/13 10:57PM
Ch0wW said:
But what can you expect when it's ruled by complete totalitarism incompetents?

Here's hoping that their incompetence is stronger than their lust for totalitarianism.
LillyTank
12/15/13 11:15PM
Stem_Cell said:
Here's hoping that their incompetence is stronger than their lust for totalitarianism.


That sounds like something that would make a pretty hilarious story.
Changer
12/16/13 07:10PM
If we reach a point where a device can "add a narritive" and make you believe it to be valid, how would democracy work? Nobody would be able to be sure thier opinions are theirs or were put there by someone else.
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