We really need one of these, so please pardon my presumptuousness in calling it "official". This thread is for discussing some tagging issues because I posted some comments on images regarding some issues and I realize that the proper place for these discussions are on the forums.

I've suggested some aliases that I think are reasonable on the following basis:
1. I literally couldn't think of any situation where the implication could not hold. Lactation is totally possible without a female because this is the internet, so I was really stretching my brain for any possible counterexamples that could ever exist.
2. All suggestions are from a tag that has at least 121 members (1% of the wiki) to a tag that has at least 121 members. This means that only very legitimate tags are involved.

So I'd like the admins to consider them. I have some more posts to make but I'll make them seperate so quoting is easier.

Second order of business:

The "[animal]_girl" tags (cat_girl, dog_girl, cow_girl, bunny_girl) were going just fine, and then the damn furries had to come and mess everything up.

These tags have a few issues:
1. cat_girl applies to anything with cat animal_ears, but it also applies to straight up furry characters that are cats.

2. bunny_girl is even worse; not only are "furry" and "animal_ears -furry" bunny girls, but often bunnysuits are tagged bunny_girl (either without bunnysuit, or as obviously-not-how-this-is-supposed-to-work double-tagging).

3. This necessitates the spear counterparts [animal]_boy, creating a whole bunch of tags that encode two things simultaneously, when meanwhile straight-up "male" and "female" are not even tags to begin with, and creating combinations of them with an unrelated form of tag seems like the wrong way to start.

No solution is going to do a good job of fixing the problem without auditing the existing tags. Fortunately even the largest categories, bunny_girl and cat_girl, are each smaller than 250, so it's doable. I've been thinking about this a while (and even edited this post many, many times) and here's what I have so far. (Yay, two numbered lists in one post!)
1. Remove animal_ears from all furry images. Explicitly say on the animal_ears page that it doesn't apply to furry or fake_animal_ears images unless there is genuine ambiguity about what's in the image.

2. All animal_ears with a recognizable animal type are also tagged [animal]_ears, as in cat_ears, dog_ears, etc., not [animal]_[gender]. These tags are implied to animal_ears.

3. Furry images are tagged [animal]_furry just how manips are tagged [editor]_(manipper). So dog_(furry), cat_(furry), horse_(furry), etc.
Alernatively: They can just be dog, cat, dragon, shark, etc., and then users looking for genuine animals search for "bunny -furry". This is faster and simpler since genuine animals are so rare, but makes the tag name less specific and explicit, so I don't prefer it.

4. To expedite the process, the [animal]_girl tags (at least the major ones) are checked to see if they are mostly furry or non-furry, and the tag gets aliased to the appropriate version.

Discuss.

What's everyone's favorite garter tag? Should straps be seperate from belts since the straps might be visible when the belt isn't, or is that splitting hairs?
hypnohub.net/tag?name=*ga...er=date&commit=Search

IMO it should all go into one tag since there's not that many images to begin with.

I'm not sure I am seeing quite the imminent problem that you are. The point of the tagging system is not to be an organization nazi, its to provide an easy to use search function.

If a person is offended by furry pics to the point that they don't even want to see thumbnails in search results, but want to go out of their way to search for animal_ears.. well.. they deserve to get truncated search results.

The fact that you called furies "damn furies" also makes this whole post feel bias in the worst possible way. This is a community, almost a refuge, for people who have what most of society would consider a freaky and weird fetish. It goes completely against the nature of such a site to point fingers at certain members and say "you are weird because of another of your fetishes"

(Oh, and there are gender tags actually. They are femdom, maledom, femsub, and malesub. )

Now, now, calm down. This kind of thread is actually good, and many of the things brought up are valid. Also, if you look at greasyi's uploads and favorites, I think it's obvious that the "damn furries" comment was sarcasm (at least of a sort). :P

I'll address the things brought up in this thread soon enough.

There's no imminent problem. I'm a computer guy, we are always trying to optimize systems. Not because we don't like what we already have but because we like things getting even better. It's a weird kind of positivity. ;)

And yes, "damn furries" was sarcasm; my porn collection is at least 70% furry. It just seems to me like when I want to find pictures of girls with cat ears and human noses, or genuinely furry catgirls - both of which I try based on my mood - it's not quite as straightforward as it ought to be.

For furry content, I think that "animal" tags are sufficient, and agree with the proposals above pretty thoroughly.

A non-furry character with natural, or natural-looking, [animal]_ears should get the [animal]_ears tag.

bunny_girl is one that's very easy to get conflicting signals from, and it should be something like "furry bunny female" for a furry character which is a bunny and a female, "bunny_suit" or "bunny_outfit" for a non-furry character wearing part or all of a bunny outfit, and "bunny_ears" for a non-furry with bunny ears fitting the above [animal]_ears rules.

Furry content needs plenty of concern taken, but my personal approach is: "furry" indicates any sort of furry content, from kemonomimi to kemono to "feral" animal characters (to me, "feral" indicates those which are physically the same as an animal, but possess the relative intelligence of a human for their setting). [animal] indicates the primary animal influence in a given character, with no need to mark if the character/animal is anthro, kemono, feral, or kemonomimi -- I use an extra purpose-built tag for all "kemono", "kemonomimi" and "feral" while assuming any other "furry" is in the anthro category.

So, for example, hypnohub.net/post/show/12...s-dazed-femsub-furry-hypn

Just tagging the species content in this picture would be:

bunny
female
feral
furry
snake

On the second issue, of garters and garter belts...

"garter_belt" and either "garter" or "garters" refer to different things, but are partially redundant. I think that "garter_belt" implies "garters", though the reverse is not always true (an image could easily present a garter without showing a garter belt, even if it's unlikely such an image would appear on any given site). I would say that "garter_belt" should be kept to refer to the belt portion, and "garter(s)" to refer to the other portion, but there should be no need for BOTH tags on a single image... if both are present, then one implies the other...

I suppose if it must be narrowed down to one, I would go with just "garter_belt"... but it feels too narrow that way.

It sounds like people might want to only have "femdom" and "femsub" without introducing "female" (which is a completely separate issue from the furry thing anyway). bunnysuit (no underscore) is already a tag, bunny_girl is just being abused by people who haven't noticed bunnysuit.

There's some issues with including kemonomimi in furry: First, that would make the animal_ears tag alias to furry, and leave us without a genuine kemonomimi tag to work from. The mods would have to figure out a way to add a new tag to every "animal_ears -furry" image before expanding the definition of furry, which I'm not sure the software even allows, unless someone wants to try doing by hand. Not including such a new tag is silly because we need to give people a way to find kemonomimi without getting hits on Krystal and Renamon, because the demographic for that is larger on this site than furries.
Second, while you have given yourself as an exception, it doesn't pan out for the furry demographic in general: most furries are not often looking for kemonomimi, as evidenced by what posts are uploaded/popular on e621. So having any of those furries on this site search for "furry -kemonomimi" any time they want to search for something furry seems silly.
While the "feral" tag is valid and useful on e621, it doesn't really seem appropriate here as it's kind of splitting hairs for most of the audience. Just like e621 only has 2-4 MC tags, it only makes sense for us to have so many furry tags (one reason I want to get rid of all the animal_gender stuff). Bear in mind that only 1% of the site's images are currently tagged "furry", and "feral" has a very different meaning outside of the furry fandom; if I saw the "feral" tag in the tag list on this site, without looking at the images in it, I would assume it had characters who had been mind controlled to a regressive, wild, uncivilized state of mind. Our ultimate never-quite-attainable goal is that all tags be easy enough to guess and recognize that a well-meaning person who wants to help tag an image can do so without an encyclopedic knowledge of whatever non-MC fetishes are in the image.

The only reason I support putting all garter stuff in one category is because only 18/12k images have garter stuff and it seems silly to make a distinction in a pool that small which is growing at such a slow rate; people searching for garter stuff can full-res examine the entire collection in less than a minute and easily weed out themselves what they weren't actually looking for.

Sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest that my system be used here for everything -- my own collection caters to my tastes, which do lean rather furry. I think for the purposes of this site, which is not built to cater to furries primarily, having one tage for kemonomimi (animal_ears) and a separate tag (furry) as non-aliased tags is fine, and considering this site's target audience, even preferable.

As far as it goes, for this site I would recommend:

kemonomimi (animal_ears) -- natural animal ears on non-furry characters.
furry -- general "furry" content of anthro/taur/etc.
[animal] -- the animal basis for animal_ears or furry individuals portrayed.
[gender] -- the gender (if obvious) of one or more characters in the image.

This removes the need for distaff counterpart tags (male/female being separate tags) and reduces the number of tags conveying multiple points of data, which dog_(furry) would do. More tags, so long as they remain clear and concise, is good if it helps us reach the goal stated above: That most tags are easy enough to guess that you don't need to know an arcane search term, and that people can reliably tag images without memorizing all the tags on the site.

On the issue of (garter_straps), (garterbelt), (garter), and (garter_belt) I would vote in favor of a consolidation into either (garter) or (garter_belt), with the latter being more preferable given that it is already the most prevalent of the four on the site. perhaps for the time being the other three could all alias to it.

For the furry & animal_ears stuff, I always thought it was kind of silly to use animal_ears on furry pics, since that sort of goes without saying. In fact, the original definition of the "animal_ears" tag that I used specifically said "A human character with animal ears." So, I wouldn't mind going back to that, and removing the animal_ears tag from furry pics. That said, you could also just search "animal_ears -furry" to find kemonomimi stuff right now.

As for ditching the "[animal]_[gender]" tags, we could always try doing what the major boorus do and use the "[animal]_ears" tags. Of course, that would probably also mean using the "[animal]_tail" tags too, which wouldn't really reduce tag bloat.

For "male" and "female" tags, other boorus only use those if every character in the image is one gender. So, for example, "female" means only females. I actually wouldn't mind these tags, as it would allow people to search for (or exclude) pics with only one gender present, but I would only agree to using them if that's what they were for. If "male" and "female" ended up on the same pic, then the tags are useless.

These are all the opinions I have at the moment.

We could use a convention like:

2girls (see: danbooru.donmai.us/posts?tags=2girls )

to allow gender tagging for multi-subject pictures. A more generic form could just be "male" and "female" for singular cases of that gender, with "multiple_males" and "multiple_females" as tags. Perhaps we could also add "only_male" and "only_female" tags to images with only one gender across multiple characters, or "solo" for images with only one character present -- or both.

I for one, don't see the problem with "female" and "male" both being on the same image, provided that the image has more than one character in it. The system would be blatantly broken if a single-subject image had both tags, I agree, but we do have images with more than one character of different genders, and I think there's no reason to not identify the genders just because there's more than one person or gender present.

I refuse to use 1girl, 2girls, etc., as it makes no sense to me unless you have a numbers fetish. We already use "multiple_girls", so "multiple_boys" would be fine if we're not already using it. We already have gender-specific sub/dom tags, so I don't see why we'd need to tag individual instances of male/female, since that would provide the same data only less detailed. I'd still be willing to support male/female tags for instances where there were no other genders in the pic.

[animal]_tail is not really necessary if we have any kind of ears because there's already a tail tag, and I don't foresee someone being mad that they can't search for cat ears somehow and also shark_tail.

I was initially in support of male/female once upon a time, but I realized it was more a niggling desire for completeness than any actual utility. I suspect most people in this particular audience care almost as much about which gender is the sub/dom as they do about gender at all, so maledom etc. seems to do the job.

I'm putting my support behind kharonalpua's suggested system, minus genders: animal_ears gets purged of furry pics (and preferably aliased to kemonomimi to send the message to furry newcomers about not using it when tagging furry pics), and all relevant pics get straight up animal names so people can search for "dog kemonomimi" or "cat furry" or "bunny fake_animal_ears". I think it strikes a good compromise between clarity and power. Re-tagging wouldn't be too bad because x_ears and x_girl both imply animal "x".
It's possible that fake_animal_ears should have an implication to kemonomimi; it depends on the people who are really into fake animal ears, I guess; I don't know if they usually like real ones too.

I also agree that "x girls" is not a good tag. I use the "that one picture I saw three months ago" test. Can I use the tags and what I remember about that picture I saw 3 months ago to find it if it's on the boory? Maybe "x girls" makes sense for a booru as inclusive as one for all anime-style drawings, because it could well be impossible to narrow many of the pictures down otherwise. Anything less inclusive than, "all drawings are allowed from an entire country and anyone in the world who draws similarly" doesn't need them.

The reason garter_belt is most populous (by 1) is because I just tagged <<hypnohub.net/post/show/12875|12875>> with it (the image that made me notice the garter tags). I actually want to change my vote to "garterbelt" though. My rationale is some Googling:
I searched for "garters", "garter belts" and "garterbelts". Quotes around 2-term words make sure they appear in sequence, and using plurals meant that hits for "garters" weren't because it was a substring of "garter belt". "garters" had the fewest hits and "garterbelts" the most. When I removed the plurals on "garterbelt" and "garter belt", garterbelt still won. So, since it's just slightly more common according to google, I now favor the one-word version.

I'm prepping to call it a night, and I'd just like to voice my thoughts on this at this moment.

Though I would still prefer to see the gender tags, I can't deny that it may just be a completeness thing, and if the information is encoded somewhere in the other tags, such a tag would be redundant. As long as it's relatively possible to find a picture by the genders in it, I don't see a need for female/male specific tags, which could be too narrow in their purpose for the needs of this site -- since the dom/sub roles being tagged is at least as important, and I see little need to give dom and sub their own tags, it is probably just me being fussy to still want female/male.

The important thing really is that we don't need to search for "catgirl" when the term itself can be confusing, as it can mean anything from "cat fake_animal_ears fem*" to "cat furry fem*", or possibly even the rare case of "cat animal fem*" (though I don't know if we have or will likely have any such soon) when the new forms let people search for what they want easily and with an easy and consistent way to filter undesirable results.

As for the garter_belt/garterbelt -- all I particularly care about is consistency in the name more than which name gets chosen. I've always seen it as a two-word term, and that's probably the only particular reason I prefer "garter_belt" -- whichever is chosen, consistency is the important part of the outcome.

Approved. Across the board. Glad to see the implication system finally being put to good use.

Anyway, moving forward to the conversation at hand, I'll start with the garter debate.

It's a simple solution, really. Most boorus use garter_belt (Gelbooru and Sankaku Complex, for example, and Danbooru uses garter_belt mainly, while also allowing the distinction of garters - NONE of them use garterbelt as one word). Given that they're pretty much the booru standard and there's no reason due to our specialization in hypnofetish to go against what they do in this case, we'll consolidate everything into the garter_belt tag.

For now, I'll be merging garterbelt into garter_belt. I'll also add garterbelt as a garter_belt alias.

As for whether to keep the garter_straps and garter tags...

As aforementioned, very few images actually use any variant of any tag with the root garter*. Given that being the fact, I'd like to just throw everything involving garters into garter_belt. In the future, should the collection of applicable images grow substantially, we can expand, then. Otherwise we're creating what is, for now, unneeded tags and complexity in tagging.

As an aside, remember that, when designing a tag system, that your only goal is not to make the tag system easy to use in searches, but also easy to tag (another thing mentioned in another post above). You want searchers to be able to find what they're looking for easily enough while keeping the tag system simple enough to where your average user can properly tag any image with relative ease and without a tagging guide on hand.




I support this. Fully. I'd change it now, but I don't want to rush into a decision, so I think I'll let this thread take its course and get some more input first. In the meantime, know that we're keeping a close eye on this thread and will be considering the options and opinions brought to us.

As the final point of current debate: genders are handled quite well with the dom/sub tags. There should be no situation at all in which you cannot use those tags to find the gender you want, in the roll you want, to boot. I see no point in nor do I have any interest in changing the dynamic of how we handle genders. It would be quite the uphill battle if one were to try to convince me it needed doing. ;)

We're always for finding new ways to improve our tags. If you have any ideas, please, don't hold back. Threads like this are awesome for getting things done.

On that note, if you feel there should be a tag <<hypnohub.net/tag_alias|alias>> or <<hypnohub.net/tag_implication|implication>>, you can suggest them on their respective pages. There is no harm in this! They will not become active until approved! Don't hold back! Just try to make sure the alias or implication you're suggesting won't prove problematic or restrictive in the future.

Read the corresponding help files for more information on the tag <<hypnohub.net/help/tag_aliases|alias>> and <<hypnohub.net/help/tag_implications|implication>> systems.